System Force Down Permanently?

[Isaha78Namso]

Just before Urd came down to the mortal plain she shut down the system force and had Skuld start debugging it so it would not be able to inter fear with her meddling with K-1 and Bell. But they never got around to restarting it up did they?
I have to wonder if this would have stopped some of Maras earlier attacks or Peorths eventual trip/visit from turning out like it did.
It seems like a small over site on the anthers part, maybe he just wanted to leave it off line so that the comic variety would be greater or something and just blamed it on the God and Goddesses to show they are more human than we make them out to be

[Timotheus]

An often asked question.

I don't think we've seen the last of the system force, it's just that Mr. Fujishima's recent stories haven't seen a need for it.

It's highly probable that at the very latest it was returned to full functional status when Yggdrasil was brought back on line after the Lord of Terror arc, it just hasn't been required as far as Bell and Keiichi are concerned.

The system force is engaged to use whatever force is needed to counter anything in our world that threatens to interupt or interfer with a contract. But since Bell and Keiichi are already putting out a maximum effort to stay together, the system force hasn't detected any earthly threat it needs to counter.

And since it also doesn't seem to be activated by demonic or heavenly activities (which is where most of the current problems have come from), the system force has remained idle.

I do have a theory that there's a sort of reverse system force that comes into play whenever it looks like Bell and Keiichi might be getting a little too close.

[tedne]

Sometimes I fancy that it is actually the reason their relationship has not gone farther faster. Perhaps it pushes them along at exactly the right speed to make sure they stay together permanently.

Not a theory I take seriously.

[Isaha78Namso]

Posted by: Timotheus
And since it also doesn't seem to be activated by demonic or heavenly activities (which is where most of the current problems have come from), the system force has remained idle.

This sounds more like a system bug if you ask me. Why just make a system that guaranties that your wish will be granted and only have it affected buy mortals. Especially if its greater threats is get wrecked by demons?

As for a reverse system, That would more likely sound like something a demon would be using. Similar to the Amplifier used y Mara when she granted Sayokos whish the be queen of NIT.

[Timotheus]

"This sounds more like a system bug if you ask me. Why just make a system that guaranties that your wish will be granted and only have it affected buy mortals. Especially if its greater threats is get wrecked by demons?"


This is one of those questions that's both easy and hard to answer. If you understand the details behind how Mr. Fujishima's world works, the reason the System Force doesn't effect the actions of gods, goddesses, and demons is pretty simple to understand.

If you don't, then it gets a whole lot more complicated.

Assuming you're in the latter catagory, let's try this...

As described in the Terrible Master Urd arc, everything in our four dimensional reality (length, width, height, and time) is being created moment by moment by Yggdrasil. With each pulse of a chronon (fundimental time particle, if they exist) Yggdrasil swipes reality with its superstring, sequentially creating everything that exists in it.

With each swipe, Yggdrasil alters our reality a little bit, changing the positions or conditions of each particle according to a set of rules it's been programed to follow. The so-called natural laws. So all the laws of physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, cause and effect, etc. are the perceived result of Yggdrasil's changing the superstring condition from swipe to swipe.

Normally this is all automatic and totally imperceptable to us. The world around us just works the way it does because that's how it is. We never see Yggdrasil's effects and just accept the results as the natural order of things.

This applies to our bodies as well since they are also part of this physical world. All biological funtions are the result of chemical and thermodynamical reactions, which are the result of Yggdrasil's programing.

Our minds and souls however are outside of this physical reality. They exist independent of the four dimensional reality that's being constructed for us to live in. But the only way for us mortals to interact with this reality is to be a part of it, so we are bound to our bodies, and Yggdrasil's rules, for as long as we live.

What happens after that is outside of this discussion.


The details of this process have been gone over in an excellent paper known as the Technical FAQ, a copy of which is to be found by pressing the FAQ icon on the main G2G site at ...

gateway.cjb.net/

And I've tried to further expand on this definitive work, by going into more detail on certain aspects of it. (see articles 29, 33, and 34 in the articles section also on the main G2G site.)


The main point for this discussion is that gods and demons are fundamentally different from us not in their physical bodies (which are nearly identical to ours), but in how their minds and souls relate to Yggdrasil.

While they also need bodies to interact with the world around them, they also have a direct link to Yggdrasil itself. So instead of Yggdrasil making a body for them to use based solely on genetics and biology like it does for us, they are literally telling Yggdrasil what sort of body it should make for them and to a certain degree what to do with it.

While they live in our world, their physical reality will normally be reacting to the same rules we have to follow, but this is more of an optional thing for them. Within certain strict guidelines, gods and demons can have Yggdrasil rewrite reality for them according to their wishes (AKA magic or goddess/demon powers). The degree and extent to which they are permitted to change things being determined by their license and class.


So back to the initial question...

The System Force is a sub-routine of Yggdrasil's reality modification process (aka wish granting) based in the heavens. It's function is to prevent internal (within our four dimensional world) events from disrupting the conditions resulting from a god or goddess's changing things (making a contract). It can therefore only respond to threats that come from within our reality (ie Sayoko or Keiichi's club mates).

Threats from sources outside of what Yggdrasil controls (gods and demons) are undetectable to the system force and it therefore doesn't respond. (Otherwise Skuld would have been bounced a looong time ago and Mara wouldn't have been able to get started.)

Hope this is understandable. Sorry if it isn't.

[Isaha78Namso]

Don’t worry my head always is scrambled like this after reading a long post like that. *Looks for aspirin.*
As for the “Treble Master Urd” I haven’t been able to find a copy of it locally.

[Aragon]

Timotheus said:

An often asked question.

I don't think we've seen the last of the system force, it's just that Mr. Fujishima's recent stories haven't seen a need for it.

It's highly probable that at the very latest it was returned to full functional status when Yggdrasil was brought back on line after the Lord of Terror arc, it just hasn't been required as far as Bell and Keiichi are concerned.

The system force is engaged to use whatever force is needed to counter anything in our world that threatens to interupt or interfer with a contract. But since Bell and Keiichi are already putting out a maximum effort to stay together, the system force hasn't detected any earthly threat it needs to counter.

And since it also doesn't seem to be activated by demonic or heavenly activities (which is where most of the current problems have come from), the system force has remained idle.

I do have a theory that there's a sort of reverse system force that comes into play whenever it looks like Bell and Keiichi might be getting a little too close.

That dose make sence.

[stormturmoil]

Not to openly contradict you Timotheus, but as mentioned earlier, it is possible that at least some of the interruptions that could be explained with a 'reverse system force' may actually be sub effects of the system force itself, slamming the brakes on whenever the two get too close too soon. Skuld in particular falls into this category, as does Mara; if they're undetectable to the system force, they're equally undetectable to a reverse system force. And just as unusuable

however, they are both openly manipulable if the system force is able to interpret their presence. Their arrivals may in fact be artefacts of the greater Scheme that is Keiichi and Belldandy's relationship.

Also, this touches on the idea that the system force will always be benevolent. This is not necessarily the case. If someone is disrupting a contract, steps will be taken, and this can apparently include outright killing people off. ( a la Sayoko, were it not for Belldandy. of course, it's possible that was a system force bluff to get Belldandy to reveal more of her personality to K1)

And since the System force therefore is not necessarily behaving with regard to what we believe is good, it could be influencing Bell and K1's relationship in ways we don't undertstand, solely for the benefit of maintaianing the letter of the contract and not the spirit of it ( which may be why Urd messed with it in the first place; She didn't like where it was leading her sister or the methods it was using.)

Incidentally, a reverse system force sounds like exactly what they would have needed to deal with celestin in the movie, but it didn't seem to work that way.

Niddheg presumably has it's own system force to enforce it's demonic pacts, which would be seperate from all this.

[Timotheus]

Hey, like I said, the reverse system force is just a goofy idea I have to explain some of the stuff that always seemed to interupt Keiichi and Bell when it looked like things might be getting interesting. It was actually more likely back in the early manga than it has been since Skuld arrived.

The system force itself is actually neutral as far as Belldandy and Keiichi's personal feelings are concerned.
It doesn't care what they feel for each other, in fact it doesn't FEEL anything at all. It's an automatic response program subroutined to Yggdrasil with limited A.I.

All it's involved in is making sure the two of them will stay together and that means running off any human that tries to seperate Keiichi from Bell. (It has never activated when someone tried to take Belldandy from Keiichi, such as Aoshima. Bell handled that one herself)

In order to make sure no earthly agency prevents a god or goddess from completing a contract it has an almost infinite range of actions it can take, limited only by the fact that it has to work within the reality that exists around the people involved. So water buckets, angry dogs, exploding engines and meteors falling from the sky are equally valid options. And while its programing limits it to using only enough force to counter whatever threat it detects, it doesn't seem to have to concern itself with how its actions may affect its target. Which is why Belldandy is so worried when its activated.

As for Niedheg, it very well could be there is a demonic equivalent. But there has been no hint of one in the manga so far. Mara and Hild have both needed to resort to personal actions to enforce their contracts.

[stormturmoil]

Valid points, I grant you. I was just curious. With this in mind, It makes you wonder if a reverse system force couldn't be a contrivance of someone in the heavens (Skuld springs immediatley to mind, though there could be others; Belldandy's parents, whoever they might be, for example)

As to the demonic system force, we have in fact only seen two 'proper' demonic contracts, both involving Sayoko; the one with the scales, and the whole Queen Sayoko incident. It may just be that Mara is a very hands on kind of agent, which may be why She's rated so high on hell's lists prior to her arrival on earth.

[Timotheus]

"Belldandy's parents, whoever they might be, for example"

That's been my pet theory for quite awhile, along with who was responsible for Peorth being assigned to grant Keiichi a second wish (I've got a lengthy post on that over on the Dark Horse Manga Mania site). And possibly the events involving Urd, Belldandy, and Peorth in the last few chapters.

I don't think Skuld would do it though, she's not that subtle.

Addendum - You can find the post under article 11 in the articles section of the main Gateway to the Goddesses site.

[Isaha78Namso]

Well this starts a new argument, If there was a reverse system force than that would explain what happened to Bell in Chapter 90 – “Never Let Go” when she started granting wishes to any one. The side effect hit both of them when Keiichi got the bad side of the wishing luck and later when they got stuck at the end thru to the next chapter.

As for a demonic system force wouldn’t that be any thing like the nuclear stand-off during the cold war. Both sides pointing war heads at each other but if you fire one off then both sides would loose?

[stormturmoil]

Actually, the whole Heaven vs Hell scenario portrayed in OMG is kinda reminiscent of the cold war. the same solution too: mutually assured destruction, in their case delivered by means of the doublet system.

in terms of system forces, it(they) exist to enforce contracts.

if someone makes a wish to a Goddess, yggdrasils system force makes sure it comes true. outside interference from demons may interrupt the contract, but mortal concerns won't( or would have to be very extreme to do so.) Niddhegs system force shouldn't be involved

the demonic system force, then, would exist to enforce the demonic pacts the demons try to tempt mortals into signing. it may be subject to outside interference from Goddesses, but yggdrasil's system force shouldn't be involved

of course, it's theoretically possible the two could clash if two people each made a diamettrically opposed wish, one to a Goddess, one to a Demon, in which case, the sparks could really fly!

[Timotheus]

Nicely put. Very succinct. Can't think of anything to add to it.

(Actually I could add a lot of text but it wouldn't actually "ADD" anything to the reply. Much like this post.)