Chapter 192 SPOILER questions

[tedne]

Well, for my first posting on this forum I want to say it is nice not to have to worry about spoilers so much.

I have some questions about chapter 192. In her soliloquy about the duties of a first-class goddess Urd talks about her desire to help others and then, in frame 13, she becomes as mysterious as a koan when she talks about: "the power to protect...to save someone who is seeking help but is mute." It sounds like the mute person she wants to help is Belldandy. Are we perhaps seeing a new wrinkle in their relationship? It does make sense that Belldandy has needs and desires that she cannot speak aloud. Am I reading that correctly?

In frame 16 there is an exchange between Urd and Peorth that seems rather, umm, intense. (Flirting?) Or is it all just an artefact of the trickiness of translation? At the very least we are seeing a new complexity in their relationship.

Finally, the question of Urd's nightmare (the wing pulling), is not resolved. Urd says she wants to keep her current status to protect her sisters. But perhaps she is covering up for her own fears. It makes an interesting contrast with the Sora Unchained arc. Does Belldandy perhaps understand her fears better than she does?

Anyway, these questions don't have pat answers of course. Just wonder what others think. I do believe that it will be a long time yet, before we hear those long-awaited wedding bells.

[Timotheus]

Hi tedne, wondered were you'd disappeared to. Thought maybe you, Kosue, and Lina had all been kidnapped by aliens.

I don't have any definitive observations on chapter 192 yet, but it is forcing me to rethink a lot of my basic profiling of Urd.

What I have gotten out of this arc so far is that the powers that be in heaven were concerned about Urd getting free access to that much power in the past, and they had good reason to be. But she was never forbidden to try, only encouraged to consider what she'd be getting herself into. She did try to understand, but was also still denying that her heritage should make a difference, so she just walked away without making a decision. Thus she still felt cheated, but accepted it.

That Belldandy was so excited for her also kept Urd thinking about how she should try and get it later, and Skuld's taunting only increased her desire to be accepted as a first class goddess. But I don't think she had any agenda after that, she just wanted to prove she could do it. (And that's what Belldandy knew she really wanted.)

The situation at the end of the chapter is that Urd finally understands that a first class license requires a god or goddess to care about and protect the whole world and everyone in it, regardless of how they might personally feel about things. They have to be able to control any negative emotions about, feel empathy with, and be willing to give their all for, everyone they meet.

Belldandy is that kind of person, but Urd isn't.

She's only comfortable giving that kind of commitment
to her sisters. She decides that while she's basically a good person, she's the sort that wants to be able to lie when lies are needed. A first class license would be just too confining and she'd be unhappy with it. That was the gist of her final thought sequence leading up to her refusing the license.

(She's also implied that even as a second class goddess she already has just as much power as a first class goddess, so the idea of getting more powerful isn't what motivates her.)

The important thing about this is that now that it's her decision and not something she felt was forced on her. She can get on with her life and stop feeling bitter about it.

We also get a demonstration why Urd with access to first class powers is not considered a good idea in heaven. And her conversation with Peorth in the previous chapter also supports this reasoning.

"I choose to ACT! If you think about anything too much, nothing will be accomplished."

(Her nightmare sequence is yet another display of her fundamental insecurity over her heritage. Over and over she's seen her hopes and achievments torn apart or negated because of her status as a black and white.)

(I also see the events here supporting my feeling that Peorth is much older than the sisters.)

This rewrite is the result of calling up the post to correct a spelling error and I decided to clarify a little.
I'm so pathetic.

[PerentieFan]

Timotheus said:

The situation at the end of the chapter is that Urd finally understands that a first class license requires a god or goddess to care about and protect the whole world and everyone in it, regardless of how they might personally feel about things. They have to be able to control any negative emotions about, feel empathy with, and be willing to give their all for, everyone they meet.

I for one kind of suspected Urd would end up making that choice. A first class license is just plain too confining for her to work with, and since she is so powerful anyway, she doesn't need it to be effective in what she does. And as you said, proving to herself that she is capable of being first class is what really matters to her personally.

Belldandy is that kind of person, but Urd isn't.

Though even Belldandy isn't fully that kind of person, given that she admitted in a drunken state that she would let the whole world be destroyed rather than lose Keiichi. Of course, the question is would she follow through with that desire if she was ever offered a chance to make such a choice.

Though this does hopefully make it easier to understand how often Belldandy appears mechanical and unobservant in her reactions to things, or lack thereof. She's conditioned herself her whole life to keep her inner feelings from showing, and rarely loses that control except where Keiichi is concerned, and even then keeps a lot bottled up. It'd be nice if she found a better balance like Peorth has.

She's only comfortable giving that kind of commitment
to her sisters.

And to Keiichi as well don't you think? Really, Urd seems to show as much concern for him these days as she does for her sisters, and given the wide range of things she advises Keiichi on or shows concern for, I doubt its all only for the sake of Belldandy.

She decides that while she's basically a good person, she's the sort that wants to be able to lie when lies are needed.

Though this doesn't solve the question of how Peorth is able to tell white lies, live fairly loose, free and all and still keep her license. Although obviously she does have a greater sense of "needs of the many over the few or one" than Urd does.

(I also see the events here supporting my feeling that Peorth is much older than the sisters.)

Indeed, Peorth has always come across as a good deal older to me than the Norns, which in turn supports the well-established theory that the deities and demons in AMG don't age physically beyond young adulthood.

[Jimmy C]

Though this doesn't solve the question of how Peorth is able to tell white lies, live fairly loose, free and all and still keep her license.

First, Peorth doesn't really lie. If you are referring to her telling Keiichi she loved him, she wasn't lying. She was asking a question. She asked in such a way to create a false impression. Strictly speaking, that wasn't a lie. Peorth probably knows you don't need to make false statements to "lie".

Second, I doubt 1st Class Goddesses are required to be paragons of virtue. The only restriction is they can't lie.

[tedne]

What about that furious blush on Peorth's face? Fujishima has teased us in the past with fake yuri, is he doing it for real this time or is this my cultural misunderstanding? It makes me wonder if there is not a serious demographic imbalance in Yggdrasil.

[Timotheus]

I'm not sure, the translation of what she's been saying at that point doesn't seem quite right. Not that I actually know anything, but her comments just don't track with the story and I gotta feeling this is a case where the literal translation isn't what is meant. So the blush could be embarassment for some reason the translation doesn't make clear. There's not enough data to make a solid judgement, Urd and Peorth have often talked more on a level as equals than Peorth has with the others, but this could just be close feelings of support or sisterhood.

I do however believe there are a lot more goddesses than gods in heaven. And since the gods are all in management positions, that leaves the goddesses to do all the field and operations work which is why we see so many of them.

(I'm working on a reply to your other post, but I've been kinda distracted by the disappearance of the Newsletter topic over on the Dark Horse forum.)

[Les]

Timotheus said:

I'm not sure, the translation of what she's been saying at that point doesn't seem quite right. Not that I actually know anything, but her comments just don't track with the story and I gotta feeling this is a case where the literal translation isn't what is meant. So the blush could be embarassment for some reason the translation doesn't make clear. There's not enough data to make a solid judgement, Urd and Peorth have often talked more on a level as equals than Peorth has with the others, but this could just be close feelings of support or sisterhood.

I do however believe there are a lot more goddesses than gods in heaven. And since the gods are all in management positions, that leaves the goddesses to do all the field and operations work which is why we see so many of them.

(I'm working on a reply to your other post, but I've been kinda distracted by the disappearance of the Newsletter topic over on the Dark Horse forum.)

Let me reassure you that we had quite a long and thorough discussion about this particular frame. Personally I found this part kinda weird since I do not understand exactly what Peorth is trying to say. Both Japanese and Chinese versions (2-3 chinese translators for the chinese version) were used and they were essentially in concordance with the said translation. Note some of the interpretations during the course of the discussion:

[JP] Since you are the way you are
I wanted to be a 1st Class Goddess

[CH] you, being the way you are, is the reason i wanted to be a 1st class goddess

[CH] its because that kind of Urd, is the reason that i want to be a first class goddess

These are readings by different translators but the concept is basically the same, hence the translation in 192

[Timotheus]

"Let me reassure you that we had quite a long and thorough discussion about this particular frame. Personally I found this part kinda weird since I do not understand exactly what Peorth is trying to say."

Please let me restate that I didn't think it's a translation problem. Just that, like you noted, what's being said isn't exactly what Mr. Fujishima means, there's some sort of context involved that changes what they're saying into something else. But determining what that would be would probably involve questioning Mr. Fujishima himself, or at least one of his team.

Since we can't do that, I'm trying to construct an analysis of this whole conversation (including facial expressions), because I think something very important to the overall story is being said. Hopefully I'll have a initial background on Urd and Peorth's relationship up today, then I'll go through the sequence panel by panel and see where it goes.

[Riyuu]

maybe I can help to clear things up a bit, but I can't be positive since I don't have the original japanese version of this chapter, since I just wait till the tankobons come out.

but anyhow, when urd says "flirt" to peorth, that doesn't sound right, the reason why is, in a situation like that japanese people will not use the word "ichatsuku/ichatsuitenno" etc

because that dirctly means "flirt" only used towards lovers or people that really like or love each other, more than friends of course, but not in the kind of relationship urd and peorth has.

now if in the japanese version it says "karakau/karakawanaide/karakattenno, or chakasuna/chakasu/chakash!teruno" that means tease or teasing which to me is different than flirt of course.

I've seen so many mis translations in other mangas as well using the word flirt, even in naruto for example kakashi's favorite book says "icha icha paradise" but the translators translated it, "come come paradise" which is totally wrong, like I said above "icha/ichatsuku, etc" means flirt/flirting/ to flirt etc

now if I am correct about the urd saying flirt being wrong, when in fact shes saying "tease" in the japanese version then that means the mis interpretation of peorth having some "yuri" type feeling as someone mentioned above, is not correct.

peorth turns red in a sort of a teasing/embarassment type ,not the lover type blush

I wonder if I'm making sense to everyone? lol actually I'm not even sure if this was the problem everyone was discussing, if not I humbly apologize

but if it is this that people were wondering about then I hope I cleared something up, as I am a fluent japanese canadian.

Richard

p.s the problem when double translating from japanese to chinese and then chinese to english is alot of misinterpretations and such can happen along the way and carry on to the other so its usually best to translate from the original japanese.

its like saying this, you tell someone a random sentence " the sky is blue" and then they whisper it to 10 people in a row and what comes out in the end is "purple monkey dishwasher" lol well of course its not that drastic but you get the idea.

note: you can never translate something into another language with 100% accuracy due to cultural differences or puns/rumors/proverbs etc so every time a double translation happens, there tends to be more mistakes or misinterpretations in between.

[Jimmy C]

the problem when double translating from japanese to chinese and then chinese to english is alot of misinterpretations and such can happen along the way and carry on to the other so its usually best to translate from the original japanese.

As one of the translators Les mentioned, I can tell you that our primary source is indeed original Japanese. However, our japanese translator can be too literal at times. Then I provide a prespective from the chinese translation that gives a better phrase.

[tedne]

Don't know about others but I am finding the problem of translation subtleties just as interesting as my original question about the meaning of Peorth's blush!!!

In any case, I hope that speakers of Japanese and other non-native speakers of English continue to post. Their insights can be really interesting even if their English is less than perfect.

Keep it up!

[Timotheus]

Yes, Thanks! The flirt comment was one of the more questionable elements as to context I was talking about.

(Again, I'm not questioning the accuracy of the interpretation. Everyone involved is doing a incredibilly fine job. I'm just looking for alternate possibilities in a confusing sequence.)

I'm also wondering if it's more clearly defined in the Japanese manga who's talking in that panel. Is it Urd or Peorth who's saying "flirt" (or maybe "tease")? As shown, it might be considered either way, and that would have a huge effect on what it means.

[Jimmy C]

I'm also wondering if it's more clearly defined in the Japanese manga who's talking in that panel.

Urd is the only person in that panel and the pointer from the bubble clearly points to her.